Who Checks the AI Labs? Independent Verification with Andrew Freedman
Guest: Andrew Freedman, Fathom
About this episode
Andrew Freedman, Co-Founder and CEO of Fathom, returns a year after his last conversation with Gregory C. Allen to explain how independent verification organizations (IVOs) went from Fathom’s niche AI policy idea to governing law in two states. They start with Fathom’s published polling on U.S. public opinion on AI and how things have changed since the Hugging Face incident.
They cover California’s SB 813; Governor Newsom’s executive order, which pulls the IVO deadline forward to May 2027 and ties IVOs to SB 53; Connecticut’s five-IVO pilot; and why the bipartisan FRONTIER Act has a surprisingly high chance of being Congress’ big AI bill next year.
In this episode
- 00:00Andrew Freedman returns: what Fathom is and why it isn’t a PAC
- 02:43The April 2026 poll: vetting, China, and who Americans trust
- 11:06Focus groups, named CEOs, and the “Armageddon” expert
- 15:21What an IVO is: Underwriters Laboratories and the Age of Edison
- 22:43How IVOs work, and why voluntary is turning mandatory
- 26:27IVOs alongside CAISI and the UK AISI; duty of care and tort law
- 31:44Who gets to be an IVO, and who audits the auditors
- 38:29SB 813, Newsom’s executive order, SB 53, and Connecticut’s pilot
- 47:31Would IVOs have stopped the Hugging Face incident?
- 52:30Bessent, Sacks, and the liability fight
- 56:59The FRONTIER Act’s odds and the 60th Senate vote